Comments on: Is Modesty Immaterial? http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/ YLCF Wed, 08 Feb 2012 19:52:39 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Joanna Wert http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11808 Joanna Wert Fri, 09 Jul 2010 14:06:56 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11808 Liz, I live in an Old Order Mennonite Community. Most of these folks, I believe, are simply living by the traditions of men. I have made this my ministry for the past 26 yrs. They are open to Christian literature, which I share on a regular basis. I have friendly interaction with them. I have considered the dress factor. If they are "more righteous" (in their own eyes) than me, what do I have to share? I came to the conclusion, however, that to change my dress would profit nothing unless I am also going to give up electricity, cars, etc. And so, I continue to be the best neighbor I can be while subtlely sharing my faith. I think I am a mystery to them. They hear me talk of my relationship with Christ, my church, etc. They know I have seven children and homeschool. They even know we butcher, can, etc. But they also see all the "worldly" things. It is a tough mission field, but my faith is in God. I can save no one. Liz,
I live in an Old Order Mennonite Community. Most of these folks, I believe, are simply living by the traditions of men. I have made this my ministry for the past 26 yrs.
They are open to Christian literature, which I share on a regular basis. I have friendly interaction with them.
I have considered the dress factor. If they are “more righteous” (in their own eyes) than me, what do I have to share?
I came to the conclusion, however, that to change my dress would profit nothing unless I am also going to give up electricity, cars, etc.
And so, I continue to be the best neighbor I can be while subtlely sharing my faith.
I think I am a mystery to them. They hear me talk of my relationship with Christ, my church, etc. They know I have seven children and homeschool. They even know we butcher, can, etc. But they also see all the “worldly” things.
It is a tough mission field, but my faith is in God. I can save no one.

]]> By: What I learned through (not) Losing It | From: The Little Pink House http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11328 What I learned through (not) Losing It | From: The Little Pink House Fri, 30 Apr 2010 20:25:50 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11328 [...] is a direct correlation between one’s figure size and one’s difficulty to maintain a heart of modesty.  But just because I cover up more than “so-and-so” does not mean I am dressing [...] [...] is a direct correlation between one’s figure size and one’s difficulty to maintain a heart of modesty.  But just because I cover up more than “so-and-so” does not mean I am dressing [...]

]]> By: Rebecca http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11274 Rebecca Sat, 24 Apr 2010 04:29:31 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11274 I love the phrase "heart of modesty" in paragraph 4. That's a great way to put it! I love the phrase “heart of modesty” in paragraph 4. That’s a great way to put it!

]]> By: Emily http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11241 Emily Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:21:18 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11241 I agree with Joanna as well. The reactionary approach I've seen in many homeschool graduates is very disturbing. I agree with Joanna as well. The reactionary approach I’ve seen in many homeschool graduates is very disturbing.

]]> By: Natasha http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11239 Natasha Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:25:51 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11239 wonderful post! wonderful post!

]]> By: Gretchen http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11238 Gretchen Fri, 16 Apr 2010 00:10:33 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11238 Excellent points, Heather. Lindsay has <a href="http://www.passionatehomemaking.com/2008/05/springing-into-modesty.html" rel="nofollow">some very helpful links here</a>--for evaluating ones wardrobe and attitude about it. I would encourage anyone interested in this discussion to check out her post and links. Excellent points, Heather. Lindsay has some very helpful links here–for evaluating ones wardrobe and attitude about it. I would encourage anyone interested in this discussion to check out her post and links.

]]> By: Gretchen http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11237 Gretchen Fri, 16 Apr 2010 00:09:51 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11237 Exactly, Heather. But I completely agree with Joanna! Especially as to the reactionary tendency in this generation. Exactly, Heather. But I completely agree with Joanna! Especially as to the reactionary tendency in this generation.

]]> By: Heather http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11236 Heather Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:59:43 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11236 I don't think anybody here came to the conclusion or was under the impression that they should drop all standards or stop dressing modestly. Gretchen just said, "(It) is not to say we believe modesty is unimportant. But perhaps it is, in a way, “immaterial.” I agree. I think a lot of people who grew up with strict parents are coming to realize not that they can do whatever they want now, but that these things aren't the main point, and shifting rather to a focus on a personal relationship with God rather than a focus on rules and laws. I didn't see anything in the post or comments that was leaning towards extremism. I hope this helps. I don’t think anybody here came to the conclusion or was under the impression that they should drop all standards or stop dressing modestly. Gretchen just said, “(It) is not to say we believe modesty is unimportant. But perhaps it is, in a way, “immaterial.” I agree. I think a lot of people who grew up with strict parents are coming to realize not that they can do whatever they want now, but that these things aren’t the main point, and shifting rather to a focus on a personal relationship with God rather than a focus on rules and laws.

I didn’t see anything in the post or comments that was leaning towards extremism. I hope this helps.

]]> By: Joanna http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11235 Joanna Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:27:45 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11235 At the risk of being called legalistic, can I point out that, just because some people dress modestly with an attitude of self-righteousness is no reason to stop dressing modestly. Another person's bad attitude is not a justification for forsaking what I believe to be scriptural (keeping in mind, of course, that what I see as Scriptural is definitely subject to error - but, hey, the God of the Universe can handle that, right? Just like He can handle all the people I feel like condemning, and give them perfect guidance.) I guess I see a tendency for 'reacting' going on in the Christian community. Our parents went a little too far in the strictness of their standards. Therefore, we swing to the opposite extreme and let standards go down the drain. Our parents were domineering. Therefore, we wave goodbye to Biblical obedience (and there IS such a thing) and follow the error-fraught path of independence. Do you see what I mean? Just because someone has taken something and run with it, doesn't mean we have to do the exact opposite. As in all things, there is a balance in the modesty issue, and dropping all standards doesn't quite cut it. Also, while I agree that, as a wife, you are 'his beauty', we cannot forget that we are first for God. We are first God's beauty. Everything about our lives should bring Him glory. Naturally, complying with a husband's wishes, and seeking to make a husband happy are a part of glorifying God, but if we aren't careful to look at it as "God first, then my husband" we are again in danger of going off balance. Just some thoughts. Great post, Gretchen! I appreciate your honesty and willingness to speak out! At the risk of being called legalistic, can I point out that, just because some people dress modestly with an attitude of self-righteousness is no reason to stop dressing modestly. Another person’s bad attitude is not a justification for forsaking what I believe to be scriptural (keeping in mind, of course, that what I see as Scriptural is definitely subject to error – but, hey, the God of the Universe can handle that, right? Just like He can handle all the people I feel like condemning, and give them perfect guidance.)

I guess I see a tendency for ‘reacting’ going on in the Christian community. Our parents went a little too far in the strictness of their standards. Therefore, we swing to the opposite extreme and let standards go down the drain. Our parents were domineering. Therefore, we wave goodbye to Biblical obedience (and there IS such a thing) and follow the error-fraught path of independence. Do you see what I mean? Just because someone has taken something and run with it, doesn’t mean we have to do the exact opposite. As in all things, there is a balance in the modesty issue, and dropping all standards doesn’t quite cut it.

Also, while I agree that, as a wife, you are ‘his beauty’, we cannot forget that we are first for God. We are first God’s beauty. Everything about our lives should bring Him glory. Naturally, complying with a husband’s wishes, and seeking to make a husband happy are a part of glorifying God, but if we aren’t careful to look at it as “God first, then my husband” we are again in danger of going off balance.

Just some thoughts. Great post, Gretchen! I appreciate your honesty and willingness to speak out!

]]> By: Kate http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11234 Kate Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:02:45 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11234 So true! Modesty is more than just a matter of outward adornment; it's a matter of the heart. Thanks for sharing this! Blessings in Christ, Kate So true! Modesty is more than just a matter of outward adornment; it’s a matter of the heart. Thanks for sharing this!
Blessings in Christ,
Kate

]]> By: Heather Wood http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11233 Heather Wood Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:33:55 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11233 This was great, Gretchen. I agree wholeheartedly. I've always had a bit of a problem with Christian girls who insist that one way of dressing is, because of its modesty, more godly because that point of view is ethnocentric. Cultures vary not only by space but also time and it simply isn't practical to view certain pieces of clothing as more righteous or godly than others. I've worn only skirts before, now I wear pants often. To me - and I do only view this as to me and not universal for all Christian girls - my clothing should be modest enough that it honors God and my husband, updated enough that I am NOT drawing too much attention to myself, and a style that I am comfortable enough in that I am not thinking too much on what I am wearing. Does that make sense? I am a servant and a tool in the hands of God. My clothing should be such that people are not noticing me for my clothing but for my actions and my service. Neither I nor those I come in contact with should be distracted by what I am wearing. Of course - I know we are human and everybody notices clothing, so that is a little idealistic, but I just want people to walk away from me thinking about what kind of person I was and how I blessed them rather than thinking about the cute top I was wearing. This was great, Gretchen. I agree wholeheartedly. I’ve always had a bit of a problem with Christian girls who insist that one way of dressing is, because of its modesty, more godly because that point of view is ethnocentric. Cultures vary not only by space but also time and it simply isn’t practical to view certain pieces of clothing as more righteous or godly than others. I’ve worn only skirts before, now I wear pants often. To me – and I do only view this as to me and not universal for all Christian girls – my clothing should be modest enough that it honors God and my husband, updated enough that I am NOT drawing too much attention to myself, and a style that I am comfortable enough in that I am not thinking too much on what I am wearing. Does that make sense? I am a servant and a tool in the hands of God. My clothing should be such that people are not noticing me for my clothing but for my actions and my service. Neither I nor those I come in contact with should be distracted by what I am wearing.
Of course – I know we are human and everybody notices clothing, so that is a little idealistic, but I just want people to walk away from me thinking about what kind of person I was and how I blessed them rather than thinking about the cute top I was wearing.

]]> By: April http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11230 April Thu, 15 Apr 2010 03:32:51 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11230 Great post, Gretchen...and an important one for the conservative Christian culture where sometimes modesty (i.e. rules about the appropriateness of certain modes of dress) has become, in my opinion, way too big of an issue. It's something my group talked about in a missionary debriefing seminar we went to after moving here...there are some values that we as Christians can't compromise on, and then there are some values that are cultural. Modes of dress falls mainly in the cultural category. Liz, as someone who lived 22 years in an Asian country, I really believe that cross-cultural modesty really depends on the situation. I would encourage anyone going to minister in a foreign country for the first time to seek the counsel of people who are already there. Honestly, I think it really depends on the country, and how the people there view foreigners. They may expect foreigners to conform to their modes of dress, or they may expect you not to care or to dress like they do because you are a foreigner. I have a friend who ministered in Jordan for two years, and she never wore a headcovering, and generally wore American-style, loose-fitting clothing. She had a great ministry to women and children there, and she is planning to go back soon. In other Islamic countries, it could be dangerous for a woman to go out in public without a headcovering. It just really depends. I would encourage you to seek the counsel of those who know, to pray about it, to discuss the specifics of what you've learned with your husband, and then dress as God leads. And don't worry too much...you will quickly adapt and learn to balance what you believe with what is culturally-acceptable. Great post, Gretchen…and an important one for the conservative Christian culture where sometimes modesty (i.e. rules about the appropriateness of certain modes of dress) has become, in my opinion, way too big of an issue. It’s something my group talked about in a missionary debriefing seminar we went to after moving here…there are some values that we as Christians can’t compromise on, and then there are some values that are cultural. Modes of dress falls mainly in the cultural category.

Liz, as someone who lived 22 years in an Asian country, I really believe that cross-cultural modesty really depends on the situation. I would encourage anyone going to minister in a foreign country for the first time to seek the counsel of people who are already there. Honestly, I think it really depends on the country, and how the people there view foreigners. They may expect foreigners to conform to their modes of dress, or they may expect you not to care or to dress like they do because you are a foreigner. I have a friend who ministered in Jordan for two years, and she never wore a headcovering, and generally wore American-style, loose-fitting clothing. She had a great ministry to women and children there, and she is planning to go back soon. In other Islamic countries, it could be dangerous for a woman to go out in public without a headcovering. It just really depends.

I would encourage you to seek the counsel of those who know, to pray about it, to discuss the specifics of what you’ve learned with your husband, and then dress as God leads. And don’t worry too much…you will quickly adapt and learn to balance what you believe with what is culturally-acceptable.

]]> By: Heather http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11229 Heather Wed, 14 Apr 2010 23:57:36 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11229 Gretchen, thank you!! This post came at the perfect time! Such an awesome reminder that we should not judge or look down on a person based on the way they dress but should strive to show them the love of Christ regardless. Also, a reminder of why we dress modestly.... Which is something I have been struggling with lately...I know in my heart why I should dress modestly (and I do strive to do so), but my husband has told me that before that he wouldn't care either way how I dress so sometimes that makes it hard to stay strong and not crumble under the pressure to wear the pretty (immodest) clothes I see other women wearing. Thank you again for this post -- it was exactly what I needed right now. Gretchen, thank you!! This post came at the perfect time! Such an awesome reminder that we should not judge or look down on a person based on the way they dress but should strive to show them the love of Christ regardless. Also, a reminder of why we dress modestly…. Which is something I have been struggling with lately…I know in my heart why I should dress modestly (and I do strive to do so), but my husband has told me that before that he wouldn’t care either way how I dress so sometimes that makes it hard to stay strong and not crumble under the pressure to wear the pretty (immodest) clothes I see other women wearing. Thank you again for this post — it was exactly what I needed right now.

]]> By: Jordan http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11228 Jordan Wed, 14 Apr 2010 21:40:15 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11228 This was a great article. I am working on a post regarding modesty and femininity for my blog and this has been helpful. It's so hard to keep a balance between obedience/desiring to please our Lord and legalism! This was a great article. I am working on a post regarding modesty and femininity for my blog and this has been helpful. It’s so hard to keep a balance between obedience/desiring to please our Lord and legalism!

]]> By: Liz http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11227 Liz Wed, 14 Apr 2010 21:12:01 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11227 Very interesting! My husband and I have been discussing this recently, particularly about how our clothing reflects to gospel in a cross-cultural missions situation. We can't make up our minds - for example, if you minister in an Islamic country, should you wear a burka (or whatever the local custom is) in order to demonstrate modesty in a way which will be understood, or should you deliberately not, in order to provoke questions? Is there an absolute standard of modesty which is acceptable to God (so you know you are pleasing him no matter what locals say) or should you adopt local customs and understandings of modesty? And would upholding the modesty standards of another religion ever be counter-productive? Can we draw a parallel with Jesus being accused of being a glutton and associating with immoral people, yet being free to love those people because he ignored social values? And to return to what Gretchen was saying, what if my husband thinks I@m being *too* modest (I'm thinking in cross-cultural mission situations mainly here - unlikely to be a problem in this country!)? I'm thinking aloud....would love to know what anyone else thinks? Very interesting! My husband and I have been discussing this recently, particularly about how our clothing reflects to gospel in a cross-cultural missions situation. We can’t make up our minds – for example, if you minister in an Islamic country, should you wear a burka (or whatever the local custom is) in order to demonstrate modesty in a way which will be understood, or should you deliberately not, in order to provoke questions? Is there an absolute standard of modesty which is acceptable to God (so you know you are pleasing him no matter what locals say) or should you adopt local customs and understandings of modesty? And would upholding the modesty standards of another religion ever be counter-productive? Can we draw a parallel with Jesus being accused of being a glutton and associating with immoral people, yet being free to love those people because he ignored social values?

And to return to what Gretchen was saying, what if my husband thinks I@m being *too* modest (I’m thinking in cross-cultural mission situations mainly here – unlikely to be a problem in this country!)?

I’m thinking aloud….would love to know what anyone else thinks?

]]> By: Katie http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11226 Katie Wed, 14 Apr 2010 18:02:03 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11226 Wow, Gretchen, these were very helpful thoughts!! I will be marrying my man this summer, and this has also been a frequent topic of conversation. I can completely relate to being jealous for his eyes. As for me, it can definitely be a temptation to dress for the approval of others. But thank you so much for the reminder that <i>"his is the approval I dress for."</i> Wow, Gretchen, these were very helpful thoughts!! I will be marrying my man this summer, and this has also been a frequent topic of conversation. I can completely relate to being jealous for his eyes. As for me, it can definitely be a temptation to dress for the approval of others. But thank you so much for the reminder that “his is the approval I dress for.”

]]> By: åslaug http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11224 åslaug Wed, 14 Apr 2010 17:09:13 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11224 I like this =) =) So important what you write. It went straight to my heart, because even if I've thought of these things, I hadn't gotten to a conclusion in my mind (which you didn't really either, I guess, but at least you managed to write sentences down), and I liked so much what you wrote because it's what I though, just wasn't able to formulate... does this make sense? Well, Gretchen, I liked it, that's the short story =) =) åslaug abigail I like this =) =) So important what you write. It went straight to my heart, because even if I’ve thought of these things, I hadn’t gotten to a conclusion in my mind (which you didn’t really either, I guess, but at least you managed to write sentences down), and I liked so much what you wrote because it’s what I though, just wasn’t able to formulate… does this make sense?

Well, Gretchen, I liked it, that’s the short story =) =)

åslaug abigail

]]> By: Heather Prosch http://ylcf.org/2010/04/is-modesty-immaterial/#comment-11222 Heather Prosch Wed, 14 Apr 2010 16:30:48 +0000 http://ylcf.org/?p=5064#comment-11222 Wow! You are right on in everything you said. I've been thinking a bit about this topic again lately as I've encountered friends who never wear anything but long dresses. I'm afraid as Christian girls we can allow legalism to dictate our lives in the area of dress. I fell prey to it in my teen years, and really didn't have a good answer for why I always wore dresses. It is certainly not a commandment in the Bible; we are told to be modest, but modesty in the Bible is first and foremost a quiet and gentle spirit. As we strive to protect our brother's eyes, we will clothe ourselves in a modest fashion as well. Thank you for this great post! It was extremely encouraging to me. Wow! You are right on in everything you said. I’ve been thinking a bit about this topic again lately as I’ve encountered friends who never wear anything but long dresses. I’m afraid as Christian girls we can allow legalism to dictate our lives in the area of dress. I fell prey to it in my teen years, and really didn’t have a good answer for why I always wore dresses. It is certainly not a commandment in the Bible; we are told to be modest, but modesty in the Bible is first and foremost a quiet and gentle spirit. As we strive to protect our brother’s eyes, we will clothe ourselves in a modest fashion as well. Thank you for this great post! It was extremely encouraging to me.

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